A healthy debate between an Atheist, Agnostic and me!

Posted: December 6, 2010 in Uncategorized
Tags:


I have a great relationship with Atheists and Agnostics, we time to time have debates on matters concerning religion, the Universe, God and many more, am pleased to bring the discussions here, questions we ask ourselves, Pastor M. of Mavuno Church few weeks ago said we all have questions that even a pastor cant answer, “Jesus is the answer” cant apply, Its not argument but healthy discussion, where people don’t get emotional but willing to listen and give facts as well as ideas. I thank Wachira and Thomas for taking their time to ask and debate.(The attitude here is “am not a know it all” we still looking for answers)

I will start with Chart room discussion then the facebook one at the end of the post. Jesusfreak in my chart room name. The discussion was about end of world.

Jesusfreak(me)

The Universe is expanding since the big bang which was the beginning 16Billion years ago, truth is there will be an End! But when? is a puzzling question only God knows….there are many things that could endanger our existence weird world wide epidemic, asteroid striking our home like the AT Asteroid that wiped away the dinosaur etc Jesus second coming …about 2012 I have watched more than 4 documentary about galactic alignment and the end stipulated by Mayan calendar..it might be the beginning of new era no one knows when the end will come …

Atheist Friend

Nothing is coming out right here..the Christians stick to the 6000 years old universe..the geologists say 16 billion…

Christians fail to tell clearly if God first created Adam and then the plants and fruits or the other way round…they further fail to explain who God was talking to when he said,”let us make man in our image”.the man God created was a farmer and not hunter..so who created the hunters??did man actually ever live in Garden of Eden or was he placed in the East of the Garden of Eden??

Did God take practically seven days to create the world or was a billion years counted as a day?

Was Adam the first man or the first spiritual man??

Did Noah’s floods only kill in middle East or did they kill the entire world..(theory has it that God tilted the Earth a little bit and water converged in one area.the theory explains the deviation of the true north from the magnetic north)….

Expanding universe brings issues with it…since the big bang,the universe began to cool and a cooling universe is expected to contract according to natural laws…but then,natural laws only exist within the solar system and the red shift in stars says heavenly bodies are drifting apart with increasing speed directly proportional to the age of the universe…we know nothing beyond that except what we observe using telescopes….

the Mayans,the Greeks,Babylonians,Egyptians and the Romans could give us key to these myths…modern science is creating more questions and problems than answers and solutions…religion makes it worse…i resign into knowing what i know..

Jesusfreak(me)

Scientist can only go back to Big Bang and say matter come from energy using the Einsteins E=Mc2 but from there they are stuck, where did that energy come from? they say it was created ..by who ? they cant tell and that’s why the bible story holds ..new discoveries are going on and there are possibilities according to resent scientific journal that the earth might be younger…science changes everyday ..the life of human is so short to measure and know much ..

Again the bible says a thousand years to human is one day to God ..so I kind of tend not to try and go to details ..I look at the big picture which is the teaching there in summarized in one word “love your neighbor as you love yourself”

The bible itself isn’t a science journal or history book so it cannot give us answers on that.. its a simple illustration of a God forging a relationship with a primitive man..it has to be as basic as possible …..

When God says ‘US’ he talks of himself ..Trinity thingie which is way complicated and its supposed to be ..we are yet to understand how our brain works what of infinite God

Now floods I honestly don’t believe it was the whole universe ..and all animals where in the Ark ..I think its a local flood ..I did some research and bumped upon this article titled:

The Genesis Flood: Why the Bible Says It Must be Local

Atheist Friend

Its a profound thought Jfreak…scientists should not be out to disapprove Gods existence..if such a scientist exists,then he has lost track…what we should front for is flexibility in our approach to religious and scientific issues..

Personally I strike a delicate balance between the two..i sense divinity in my life though I wouldn’t want some doctrine to guide me on the divinity..i am a Catholic by biological association to my parents..but this alone does not give me absolute surety to defend the Catholic doctrine without delving into its deeper meaning,its history and its current practices..most of us have our affiliations to religion by birth and we think we are doing right.this gives the atheists a loophole to punch holes into believers…I have a big problem with preachers who wake up one day and decide they have been “touched” and start talking about God without some theological guidelines..

I would wish to believe what the bible says about many things but then i remember conversion of emperor Constantine to Catholism, the mutilation of the bible, the Nicene conference, the Nicene creed, the changing of church headquarters to Constantinople and all the injustices done to destroy the TRUTH..you may not believe it if i told you the declaration that Jesus was in the Trinity was decided upon by votes in the Nicene council during the Synod of Bishops…

What happened during early spread of Christianity was actually political and i approach the current bibles authenticity with great caution..I would publicly defend it as an authentic document…

Again, we cannot divorce science from religion…we have people like Job marveling that “God suspends the earth on nothing”…he asks if anyone can understand the laws that govern the sky(natural laws),he talks of the water cycle” God makes rain fall from the skies, then to the rivers, then to the seas and back to the sky”…..

Then come to think of it..Moses wrote the first four books of the Bible and he wasn’t around…don’t you think he did some time traveling(Einstein’s idea) to see what had happened in the past before writing about it?

New testament was written by ppo who never saw Jesus..Mark was Peter’s apostle while Luke was Paul’s apostle and what they wrote was on the account of what they were told…could we rule out human errors? Some say it was inspired, but the bible does not say so…

We actually go back where we began..we know nothing..we should look for something…we should do some research…we should have some data..and we should turn to science for current answers…

Another Atheist Friend

Its only in Africa where we blindly accepted the Western religious ideology…the West mutilated the Hebrew idea of Messiah and brought it to Africans to enhance colonization…The Asians resisted any form of indoctrination from the Roman idea of divinity…

Just but a thought…. that more than half the population in the Scandinavian countries are confessed Atheists and that is the region of the world where the crime rate is low…..Kenya and Nigeria have the highest proliferation of churches in Africa and they are the same countries whose citizens are feared most for covert activities…

The question then lingers…”is existence of a behavioral code of conduct in a society catalyze humans to go against the rules?”…

As good people we need no rules and guidelines to love our neighbors..the atheists don’t butcher their neighbors just because they are not believers….and believers don’t live in perfect harmony because some doctrine said so…we need to listen to our inner voices…they always tell us the correct thing to do without necessarily attaching some sort of threats like the ones we get from Abrahamic religions…

from a genuine view, though very hypothetical, I could ban active religious activities in this world…i know not of any major war that didn’t come as a result of religious differences…human beings have died trying to justify their gods as being superior than their neighbors…


Jesusfreak(me)

First and foremost men are created with hunger to worship God and in all culture human beings have what they worship….There is a God and reason for life.

The western didn’t manipulate our view for deity being light skinned and Devil black, in fact the bible says the devil has good looks(like a morning star), he was finest of em angels …Jews are light skinned and ..the Idea of black and white comes for the mans perspective of dark and light.

The west dint manipulate Hebrews if you look at the original dead sea scrolls in the Museums nothing has changed and they were written centuries back around 600 AD (Gospels) and some around 4000 years back so “West” wasn’t there.

Most countries In Europe has suffered a lot of genocides and killings with their Atheist believes, we can’t go to details of Kosovo and stuff dating back to Hitler era.

Saying we human don’t need rules and regulations is running away from reality ..can u imagine if the hand of law in the country could be removed and men allowed to do what their inner self drives em ..people will rape, kill, steal and do wherever they want coz it makes them happy. There are many good qualities and stuff that has come out of religion including AID mother Teresa being an example, schools, hospitals etc ….you don’t need to go far ask any lady what kind of man she want to marry ? Last time I was listening to Amani being interviewed and she said “God fearing man” among other qualities… so I think you are tawtly wrong ..the wrongs done where out of misinterpretation.

Atheist Friend

Jfreak, I strongly hold unto the belief that I do not need religion to be good..it may be an existentialist point of view but for two or so years I haven’t given much thought to religion, I don’t think I have committed wrongs against nature(and neighbors included)…

I believe in a strong moral code which every human, the unique of all known creatures can develop..without developing personal moral code, then we lose a special place in on earth as intelligent beings…

True, the atrocities in “the Siege of Sarajevo” were done by Serbs who wanted to cleanse Kosovo of the Muslems, Bosnian and Croats…much as the initial causes of the war were ethnically motivated, the UN (call it USA) didn’t intervene on time because they didn’t see any use in stopping massacre of Moslems…it was not until the massacre of Srebrenica that the UN saw use of intervention….

The Classic example given about Scandinavia is very valid….do you actually need guidelines to behave in a humanly way? you have mentioned sins of communion that will be committed if there were no laws…now that we have laws, spiritual, municipal and international, we still commit sins and crimes….

I would like one to talk about the Nigerian and Kenyan case i mentioned earlier…

A divine feeling isn’t bad at all, what always goes out of hand is the active organized religion…

Have a look at the massacre of Armenians, the Persecution of Jews in Europe, the Galileo affair, the Jewish uprising, the Six Day War,,,Massacre of Moslems by Pope’s(Gregory) soldiers, Sino-Centrism, Martin Lathers attack on Jews,,,etc…all these can bring you to the reality of the harm organized religion has done to human race…..

Christianity is a purely Western idea and has little to do with the Original idea of Yahwe..thats why the tampered part of the bible is the new testament which is meant to propagate the idea of Christianity…

Why then did Calvin and Luther omit the Apocrypha from the bible??non Catholics are missing important info that could assist them in understanding the root of their belief…


Jesusfreak(me)

Religion enslaves people but a relationship with God makes people free, most people have never differentiated the two…If you read the bible new testament Jesus was opposed to religious livity and when addressing them(religious leaders) he was always almost “abusive” to the scribes and Pharisees…but knowing God makes you free… he summarized all the laws to “LOVE” ..he said its not about the “do” and “don’ts”….Religion enslaves people…

Knowing God also gives hope to humanity ….If you go right now to Kibera\mukuru Kwa Njenga, there are thousand of desperate people and some have lost hope in life, knowing there is someone that cares ..keeps them going ..Knowing that someone will fight for them, will revenge for them, loves them keeps them positive and also makes them not to do anything funny.

Yes true there has been bad things that took place in the dark age in the name of the God, like the crusaders who butchered Muslims in the Middle East ..but that showed how wicked man is and cannot be trusted..while the book he was using to do that speaks against such actions ..

Apocrypha….. I have read some of those books including Gospels of Barnabas and some with hard names cant recall and also the book of Enoch ..and surely the books go against all the other books ..look here we have a set of 66 separate writings, written over 1600 years, by 40 different people, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents(and they all agree on major doctrines)…. then we have like 5 books of guys who wrote opposite of the 66 books what do we do ..most of those who wrote those books had fallen away from Faith due to one thing or the other d the teaching aren’t upright one I was reading talks about casting demons exosism and some stuff like witchcraft ..I wouldn’t include the book in the canon even tho’ it was an ancient work.

Both Jews and Christians don’t agree but has the same books in their possession and no one has changed it to suit their living ..If Rome or Christians had a chance to change the bible or manipulate it they would have done that but by the fact that most thing written there they haven’t been able to fulfill shows how the book hasn’t been tempered with.

Atheist Friend

I can see some meeting of minds here.

I am convinced Jesus ministry never properly took place after his death the way it is narrated. It’s important we seek clarification from the following events in History after Jesus’ death…

The squabbles between Paul and Peter led to Paul implanting Simon Marcus in Rome.
Simon Peter implanted another guy in Jerusalem (I cannot remember his name) to counter Paul. This led to the Paulisnists camp and the Petrines camp engaging in tactical wars….This explains why Mark (Peters disciple) and Luke (Paul’s disciple) gospels differ on vary many accounts…we can talk of the Sermon on Plains and on Mountains,. the calling of Peter….etc…the gospels say it differently…

I believe so much adulteration was done on these stories, on one hand by Mark and Luke to exalt their masters and on the other hand, by Romans to play down the difference between these two disciples. Peter confessed that Paul’s teachings could confuse Christ’s followers…
That the church leaders were at war from the onset of the first Jerusalem council cannot be denied. The reformers (led by Martin Luther) left the Catholic Church because the difference of their views about Simonial priesthood….
Remember Paul sold healing powers to this Simon Marcus. This was transmitted down the systems of Rome where one could buy healing powers from the church…

As for exorcism, in the apocrypha books, I do not see anything wrong with exorcising spirits. In Catholic, only authorized priests do the exorcism…the practice is common in all Pentecostal churches…I have also read some of the Apocrypha, and the books are that good. The problem with those who reject them as non canonical is that they want attachment of holiness to every book that’s in the bible.. a secular book isn’t too bad to read as long as it isn’t leading us into sins..…Jesus used to quote heavily from the Apocrypha…

The Rome ministry was led by this imposter (Simon Marcus) for quite some time until Peter waged war to oust him. We actually know not if Peter ever won the war…it is not clear whether the church, as known today, sprung form Simon Marcus or Simon the Rock

We actually never know if the grave at St “Peters” in the Holy Sea is Simon Peters’ or Simon Marcus’.

Am afraid Jfreak, but I only follow closely activities of organized religion the way I follow….

You sound enlightened in religious issues…my interest is as a hobby and I wish you open another topic on the site where we can learn much more…for other readers, apologies for the bruhhaha….

Jesusfreak(me)

Thats really some good information right there, I have to take some time to do some research, will get back to you.

Of the little I know about the inside squabbles between the disciples, is that it was there right, Peter was stuck to the Idea Christianity was only for the Jews and was not welcoming to the Idea of Gentiles (uncircumcised) being part of the Jesus saving grace, while Paul was so open minded and he went to quote many past passages that declared Christ was sent to the whole world and that circumcision was of the heart not the body ….This was largely due to their upbringing and experience Paul was an intellectual and interacted and debated with the Greeks and Romans alike, so he was more enlightened unlike Peter …there was also the Idea of Mary Magdalene being part of the disciple but not mentioned a lot due to fact that women were not recognized in the table of leadership …..

Now about the difference in the Peters’ books and letters of Paul its true, and not only that, several other books report conflicting information, even those written by same writer, like 1st Samuel and 2nd Samuel(and its those verses that Muslims quote to disregard the bible as being word of God)but its doe to fact that bible was translated through dictation and some of the little details where lost doe to lack of ways to express some words in different dialects and where there supposed to be brackets being left out.

However its important to note that the books even the ones belonging to Paul and Peter doesn’t disagree when it comes to main doctrines of Christianity which includes Doctrines of God, redemption, death, resurrection…etc and that’s why they where included in the canon..otherwise they would have been left out (Its like now we have pastors who still think a lady shouldn’t dress on trousers, other believe in deliverance and salvation other believe in salvation only)

But again I would love to research and get back to you thanks for taking your time. You seem well versed too cool, info is to be shared thanks.

    The other discussion was on facebook

I posted the following post and it became a platform for debate..how good

General Relativity – Einstein Discovers God
In deriving the equations of general relativity and applying them to the universe, Einstein came up with an equation that suggested that the universe had resulted from a gigantic explosion.

http://www.godandscience.org

Wachira Emmanuel: Holy Mary mother of nyagaka! The apologetics are trying to rubbish Einstein 1 of the greatest freethinkers, who among many other quotes said. “I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice.” “God is subtle but he is not malicious.” “Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.”

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: I like what Jesus taught “Non-religious Christianity” its powerful coz it doesn’t fear knowledge we all looking for answers so ..in the bible Gods says “COME LETS REASON TOGETHER..” meaning he doesn’t fear questions ..tho’ not all u will get answers..some will take years to understand

Wachira Emmanuel: god said lets reason together? Which part of the bible is that? Coz if am not wrong he’s the same guy in the old bible who was advocating 4 killing of the non-Judaic

Wachira Emmanuel: sorry it’s God, lest u lynch me

Manciny ÑëëMöh Migwi: Isaiah 1:18

Wachira Emmanuel: I like the way u didn’t reply my other question, I guess Isaiah 60:12 and 14 will do it

Now to your verse 18 (and I dint understand why u choose 1 verse in isolation) how does that amount to reasoning with God, coz he was telling them to stop wars…hyping other gods and worship him only. Reasoning is when u have constructive dialogue nt monologue. Read from 14 to 18.

Manciny ÑëëMöh Migwi: U asked what part of the bible that bit was..

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: Come now – God alikua ana address Israelites and the same exhortation is made to all sinners pia. ni solemn act on the part of God, submitting the claims and principles of his government to reason, on the hypothesis that men may see the pro…priety of his service, and of his plan. Not a brutal commander and all he wants us kubonga hii story.

Let us reason together -meaning to show, to prove etc ni mingi then now comes to the one u saying Isa_1:18-20, to adduce the principles on which he is willing to bestow pardon on them; and submits the case to them, assured that those principles will commend themselves to their reason and sober judgment.

Wachira Emmanuel: Naona Manciny anajamu, anyway my point, stupid maybe, is that God didn’t mean reason the way u want to put it, he was basically saying u guys hebu be reasonable and join my camp otherwise mtakiona. My belief is God is a nyc guy who wants us to genuinely reason and ask questions, not the god of the bible who I believe we men have made a bad personality and quick to revenge.

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: By the way that’s why Jesus came, we are in the new Testament dispensation bru…story ya Old Testament ni no more…he is a good shepherd and If you closely study Jesus Message of course there is repercussions for not accepting to change your life

Wachira Emmanuel: r u saying we dispense of the Old Testament? If thats so then we shouldn’t quote the old, and btw that’s what i call buffet Christianity, choosing wht we want when its gud and refuting it when its bad.

Na btw mungu ni mmoja unless unasema yeye hu…change from tym to time i.e. old testament to new.

Thomas Isaiah: Wait a second, brotha. So you are saying that it’s been science all along? No miracles from a god called God? That’s a shame.

Thomas Isaiah: I mean it’s a such a shame. The god called God will be disappointed for reducing His mighty works to pop science.

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: God uses anything Science (of which He created us with) or miracles which Is defined by your understanding, know how..but all that is details can destruct us from the main agenda.

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: Old T is important but those were rules governing the Israelites we have alot to learn from… however one qualities if God is “He repents” meaning he make a new covenant a new way of approach to make relationships…. just like His image (us)

Wachira Emmanuel: Why make a new covenant? Kwani God changes with time? That’s the illogical part I don’t understand. I have a strong feeling man made god. But I have a feeling (I rpt) that there is a God who wants u to live a good life without fear. And pls note, am not putting my points to convert anyone. I respect your views.
And this is a defeatist remark from you ‘but all that is details’ “Can destruct us from the main agenda’

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: LOL! I like that ” ati ur not trying to convert anyone” lol ..why do u do you think that? I said its important its detail but can destruct us from the main agenda ..look here.. the bible was translated to a specific people at a specific time, they had their culture, like now if bible has to be written am sure there will be airplanes , movies, space science stuff and all ..like the way it says ” you shall be white as lamp” in some hilly place lamps(kondoo) are black, so of course it will be a bit different and when u read u’ll say howz this and that while the MAIN picture is simple its god trying to forge a relationship with us, his children, simple.

Wachira Emmanuel: unajua nikiargue na wasee wengine wanaweza dhani mimi ni ka-jehovah witness flani. Now I can’t deny that the bible was written at a certain time 4 certain pple. But I do think god or God should have corrected some wrongs eg ati the earth was flat…! Imagine! Alafu why did god pass keeping of slaves I think the 10th commandment, kwani if we were made in his image si then we were made equal! And if u say hiyo ni O.T, then why did Jesus nut speak against it in the N.T?

That’s why I strongly believe man created god to suit him. The only religion I don’t have beef with is Buddhism. Islam na Christianity are cults that make pple fear and war can b used to convert.

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: I like where u admit “there is a God..and want us to live a good life without fear”..the issue is how u do you know about this God…how does he operate..what does he want and doesn’t want…..right?..If you were that God how will you lead the people and make sure they don’t do something stupid to each other, wouldn’t you tell them that the greatest commandment is “love your neighbor as you love your self?”

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: Earth being flat? Then you might want to read Isa 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth…….

About slaves in the old primitive times there where voluntary slave and involuntary once and if you look in many traditions …specially those who worked at kings palaces where voluntary slaves ..its like the modern day “mboch” sort of thing (slave=servant)

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: ‎… we are in the new Testament dispensation Jesus summarized all those by fulfilling them..He gave one command “love” (so slavery no more)

Wachira Emmanuel: I would tell them that, but I would also tell them that they shouldn’t let religion control everything they do, I’d also fight my own fight and let them know I dont take nonsense easily. But emphasize is on I would fight my own fights

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: hehe I know in the past people have killed each other ” fighting for God” but its mis interpretation, Jesus said “My Kingdom is not of this earth” and He said he is a humble servant ..by deciding to enter Jerusalem on top of a donkey instead… of a horse and a spear, its a clear message His was non violence….now you arer back to religion ……I thought we left religion aside….and by the way if you watch the big bang theory on how out universe started the scientist states clearly big bang was CREATED from nothing but they don’t say by who..from nothing to infinite temperature , infinite energy and infinite violence ..who can explain that…and its evident that truly the universe is expanding.

Wachira Emmanuel: By the way tho’ I forget, there are scientists who did a big bang that created peptides, the proteins necessary 4 life. Maybe God did a big bang, but what if there are God(s) who know we exist in 1 galaxy, what if there is life on another galaxy? Where did we get the story of creation? U may say god communicated to those guys in a language they understood but why ignore to mention that he created other galaxies. Did u know the moon was caused by a star hitting earth? Am an agnostic coz I don’t fear to question god coz I know God wouldn’t mind. I have free will I don’t follow what doesn’t make sense 4 me. Why do we let pastors take advantage of the desperate? Why do we take what they say as the truth? Why do we as Christians only read the bible where it suits us and ignore that which we see clearly raises a million questions?

We are in a journey, each in his vehicle we should respect each other, be polite, and no1 should try to force the other onto their vehicle. Njia ni moja i want to b judged coz of my morals nt my religion. I can bet if kuna heaven kaMwangi might be there Margaret Wanjiru atakuwa hell lol

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: The bible says there are very many things not recorded……I mean if everything was to be recorded including all laws of physics…to people who where primitive..telling them about the moon and all about space about how there are weird little animals called bacteria and viruses. bible isn’t a history book or science journal..its basically God introducing himself, what you will tell an illiterate person about Omo if you are selling it..u will simply say it washes all the dirt and oil etc but you wont tell em the technical part about how the tail holds onto oils and head dissolves to water…

Wachira Emmanuel: Am not saying god should have gone into specifics (although it would have been nice) what am saying why did he not tell them the truth about creation? Ati made of mud! U knw we chekelea pple who say tulitoka kwa magoti, ama kwa nywele za mung…u etc we find it absurd but don’t question story ya bible which is just hilarious.

Alafu story ya Jesus born of a virgin!! I hurumia Joseph he was cheated on and told its a divinity. Why r we told that JC is of David’s lineage? Coz he aint. JC, is he existed, was a charismatic guy. But his fan club is making things worse 4 him.

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: About Jesus birth and trinity I don’t expect to understand, if I can’t understand how my own mind, body subconscious, dreams etc works what of infinite being?

Wachira Emmanuel: why do u follow something in the deepest of your heart u have doubts? Religion teaches us to use our hearts and frowns on those who use their minds.
Am agnostic coz I cant deny or prove the existence of God(s) but I can surely disapprove Christian and Christianity. I don’t know about Mohammad but I can disapprove Islam.

Thomas Isaiah: So for everything we don’t understand we should put a God-shaped full stop? Let’s see: I don’t understand women and how they make such fine thubu at Jogu’s; therefore women are goddesses and the process at Jogu’s divine! Next question!

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: Its human to have doubts. John the Baptist, Jesus, Mother Teresa had doubts bout God…its faith

Thomas Isaiah: Won’t work. If you don’t understand something, you investigate or read about how others have investigated it. Subconscious, dreams and such have long been explained. Even the rise and the need of religion in antiquity.

Lawrence Ital Mwangi: ‎@Mwane lack of evidence of Gods existence isn’t evidence of His non existence

Wachira Emmanuel: I agree with Thomas, what we don’t understand should b investigated, there was a time lightning, thunder, flooding, near death experiences, eclipses were thought to be god speaking to us. Science has proved it wrong

Advertisements
Comments
  1. @mutuku says:

    Hi,

    Like your blog. Great discussion here

  2. thanks Mutuku even for passing by.Gdday!

  3. Mlush says:

    here is a case of healthy debate…and did u ever know no matter how much you debate on these issues – no one considers even converting to the other side?

  4. Its sharing of knowledge conversion is work of holy spirit(thu’ conviction) and I admit its hard thanks for passing by @Mlush

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s